My latest brainwave on fuel.

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy & Emissions' started by Stormin' Norman, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    I should take Stefan's lead on this site and just comment occasionally, but I keep getting ideas about fuel sources.

    This one is my own, but I'm putting it out there for the Public Domain. I have no illusions of instant wealth or great fame. It's just too obvious to be seen.

    There's a few sites that are digging into converting regular water into Hydrogen Gas (HH) at about 15 PSI (Pounds per Square Inch), and mixing it with the separated Oxygen cell (via an electical charge from the 12 Volt system) to boost up combustion. Some are using it as an additive to gasoline, some are trying to make enough to make their engines into dual fuel vehicles.

    The problem with either approach is that they have to carry water, mixed with as little as 20% alcohol (helps get enough combustion to start the car) or more alcohol to prevent the water from freezing.

    My latest brain wave:

    There's an old joke about why some people have big noses, and the punchline is that Air is Free. Well, for some dumb reason, this morning, I got up thinking about that in this fuel context.

    Hood scoops have been around since the Aircraft engine. More Air, better combustion. Air has natural moisture (water). Car air conditioners take the moisture out of the car's air and let it drip outside the car in highly humid areas. So far, and those of you living in desert regions can speak up, the driest I've heard of in Canada is our desert regions in Southern Alberta and Saskatchewan, where the humidity gets as low as 28%.

    In the winter, here it gets around 45% in -50C weather (-45F). Drive faster, collect more humidity, right? Not with an adjustable 'hood scoop'. Make it sort of like the iris of your eye, adjusting its opening depending on the amount of humidity in the air, the speed or windspeed around the vehicle, and the acceleration you're putting to the engine.

    1) Producing the gas isn't a problem.
    2) Storing the hydrogen or Oxygen gases in a tank is too dangerous.
    3) Carrying, buying or producing 100 proof alcohol will get pricier as people move to Hydrogen hybrids.

    My theory is that you'd have two delays. If the small reserve of Hydrogen gas you've got at the time of shutting it down (turning the car off) isn't enough to restart, the car would open the 'scoop', generate enough to 'top' it up, and shut down. The first delay would be like the old Mercedes Diesels, where you had to hold down a warmer button for the igniters (glow plug) to preheat the incoming fuel (for really cold starts).

    The thing is that if the fuel is 100% free (common air mass), the delay is tolerable. Besides, carjackings would go down. :evilsmile:

    Help!!!!

    Kick these tires to death, maybe we'll get some good ideas to make it work! :confused: :bowdown: :hide: :idea:

    It's not that far off. I heard rumors that some jet engine companies are looking to convert passenger planes to Hydrogen engines. At 35,000 feet, the air is a lot thinner than here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
  2. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    Stormin' Wouldn't a small Supercharger with fuel injection or a turbocharger do the same thing? A engine is a big air pump right? If the heads are worked up properly a good porting would work the intake side left rough and exhaust side smoothed out for a faster exit. High Flow catalytic converters and dual exhaust on the engine (6 or 8 cyl) say using 2.5 in exhaust pipes up to 3.0 in pipes would make the engine more efficient.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2008
  3. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    That's not a bad idea. All you want is to trap the humidity (I think) and split the hydrogen and oxygen from the water, making H2O into HH O - 2 parts hydrogen cells and 1 part oxygen and run it into a carb or an EFI/SEFI/CFI system. The common air has all kinds of stuff in it, so the easiest way (I think) to get the Hydrogen split off into useful combustion gas would be trapping the humidity (H2O) and running a 12 VDC current through it. Common air, might have pollutants, pollen, dust. Probably like an AC condenser with the Supercharger pumping the right amount of air into it, depending on the fuel demand that the engine needs. Good thought! (y)
     
  4. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    My wife and I seen this on the news and we tried calling the company that was working on this but could not get a answer.

    It's a hydrogen system for cars and truck. The news story showed part of the system but not all of it. and they plan to sell such systems for around $2000.00 which seems a little high to me since you can only use distilled water.

    Here was the phone number that was on the side of the car. 502-647-3316

    Called hydro-fuel techologies
     
  5. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    Now, you're cookin'! And I thought you were just a pretty face... :evilsmile: Well from the backside anyway... :rofl:

    All you need with HH O is less than 9.4:1 compression, in fact 8.4:1 makes a happier engine with HH O!

    I thought the Catalytic converters were to help neutralize the polluting emissions. There wouldn't be any from an HH O engine, unless you count the engine oil burned in the valve stems via the PCV valve.

    The big pipes are a great idea, cause you could run a huge, low compression V8 and really get it breathing. Stainless Exhaust won't rust, and with no hydrocarbons attacking the exhaust system, it wouldn't crystallize and fall off either.

    Keep 'em coming. ;)
     
  6. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    Thats true about the exhaust. The system I seen on TV news a few nights ago uses the hydrogen along with gasoline and they said they have recorded 30-40 mpg but they never said what engine they had since they were driving a early to mid 90's GM Firebird it could have had the 3800 V6 or the 5.7 V8 either way that is a good jump in fuel mileage considering the 5.7 V8 gets about 20 hwy and the 3800 V6 gets about 23 hwy so that would be about a 20-30% increase in mileage?

    Now if you can combine a small compression engine set up to run a small supercharger with FI that would be 5-10% and add in another 20-30% with the hydrogen system it could end up getting closer to 50mpg.

    I also been wondering if the injectors were a little smaller if that would also add to mpg
     
  7. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I've seen their site too! There are cheaper ones, but they all need you to carry water and alcohol. What I'm throwing out here is to get the 'water' right from the air, shut the car down with a small reserve of hydrogen gas to start it up and no water or alcohol storage. Now you've got a car without a gas tank at the back. 200 lbs of weight off the back end (20 gallon tank), and running no emissions other than water vapour.

    Lots of those systems are being flogged, some through Multi-Level-Marketing. They work fine, but you're still stuck with additive alcohol and normal gasoline to start it up. You can make your own for about $50. and get a bit of a boost. It would be cheaper to change the Distributor Advance Curve springs and get about the same mileage boost. I posted the links to the Mr. Gasket site in that Fuel Efficiency For wagons post. GM and Ford, V8s and Sixes.
     
  8. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    I have been reading at FTE where some owners of 2004-2008 F150 were getting really bad gas mileage and also in the Expedition forums there too. One member has a 98 Ford Expedition with the Ford 5.4 litre V8 was only getting about 16-18 mpg on the hwy. He ordered a Ford supercharger that was used on the Ford lighting trucks. With that and a cold air intake,high flow cats,dual exhaust,headers. He went to 26mpg hwy. So with that I most likely won't keep my wagon and may look for a Ford wagon after we move and strip it all out and put a modern 5.4L in it with all the above.
     
  9. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    I have been wondering how good this will work on my 85 F150 since the engine has been rebuilt. If I can build my own hydro system to help my truck will it boost my mpg by 20%?
     
  10. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the HH O gives a bit of a boost in both MPGand HP, with or without gasoline. You can get up to 15 more HP with just water injection - straight water from the tap (rain water is better). For summer driving that's great. About $10 with an old washer fluid container and some vacuum lines. You'll save about 8 to 10% in fuel too. Lots of Euro and North American cars have had that on factory cars. BMW, Mercedes, and even GM. They dropped it because people forgot to refill the water.
     
  11. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    I would think the HH O set up would be best since my 85 F150 is FI rather than the putting water injection on?
     
  12. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    I've heard that it's used on both, but again, NOT on a high-compression engine (8.4:1 to 9.4:1). Your valve train couldn't take it. Once the water hits the combustion chamber, it makes a burst of steam and the chamber gets cleaned up in a hurry! Cleaner oil, cleaner burn, more oomph and mileage. What's in the F150, a V8 or a 300 six?
     
  13. Roadking41A

    Roadking41A Well-Known Member

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    a rebuilt 302 bored out 30 over but still the same factory compression.AOD automatic transmission and a 8.8 rear end with 3.55 gears.
     
  14. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    Have a look here:

    http://www.stationwagonforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2361&page=2

    Those little springs are the first thing that I'm doing to mine, before I even get the new car insurance. Then I'll tweak it again for water injection. Then I'll tinker the HH O in a water bottle, Then I'll work out what ever makes sense in all the ideas we get going here. I just don't see why we can't do it. I'd switch up to a 300 Amp truck alternator if I had to, but I don't think that's necessary to get the HH and the O split off - its like a 10 to 12 AMP load (less than the heater blower). I've got 130 Amp alternator now, and no AC or big, fancy lights or stereo.
     
  15. Stormin' Norman

    Stormin' Norman Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the right machine. They ran at 9:1 to 9.5:1. You'd be fine.
     

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