I gotta be honest with you. I think there's a lot of opportunists flogging junk info. They probably lobby politicians for the oilcos, for money. Yes! There are cars running on straight, clean water. Most of them do some electrolysis for one of two reasons: A) To prevent nasty chemicals from damaging the engine. B) To chemically prepare the stainless steel to produce Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses for use in the combustion chamber. Somehow a small amount of it produces Nitrogen Gas as well and puts out Nitrogen and Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses in the right proportion. C) Chemical labs and chemists keep telling them there is no such gas as Nitrogen Hydroxide. They don't mix, but they might bond (loosely). It comes from a very complex system, based on Tesla's theories, that claim that external Magnetism (needs a separate power (DC) source), that nobody can prove or disprove, but the mix of the three gasses works. Not cheap, close enough to prove high HH O production, and takes a lot of time and money to get there. A new Hybrid car would be cheaper, just to tinker and chat online? Not me, thanks. D) A lot of guys working on these are scared literally to get found out, the Conspiracy theories and Suppression examples baffle and obfuscate the ideas. (Constipated and shared in shadows and double-speak, scientific baffle-gab, IMHO.) The bottom line is that this Carl Cella system works on 100% Tap water. He claimed he got 3000 MPG, on his 1979 Caddy, another guy used it on his 253 V8 EFI engine and gets 225 MPG and 300 MPG on long trips. The rest is too far based on adding all kinds of widgets and gadgets and circuits, that by the end of it all, your car would look a mobile lab. The thing I really like about Cellas system is that you DON'T have to advance the timing to 70 or 80 degrees, like some of these really GEEK guys are doing. Even changing the distributor shaft by 90 degrees (welding a new slot). Quick and nasty is a straight water injection system, next quick and nasty is Carl Cellas for really high mileage. It still uses gasoline, but even if he bragged it up to 3,000 or 1,500, the other guy is getting 225 and 300 on two gallons of gasoline and 2 litres of water. I can live with that. No stainless steel valves, no gasket changes, no alcohol. Time and hardware from Home Depot. Makes sense, thusfar. I'll still stick to my steps: 1) Change the Advance Curve Springs to Mr. Gasket's. 2) Add a small water injection system for summer driving, this year. 3) Build up all the components in the Carl Cella system over the winter and try it next year. Maybe, by then, the geeks will have refocussed. Good stuff, but not for the average guy with a normal life. You've really got to have time and major $$$ to tinker with this stuff. For me, up here in the cold North, even Toyota's new Hydrogen Fuel-celled car wouldn't work for the winters. It won't run below -30C (-20F). We get -40C and -50C sometimes for a week at a time. Imagine driving at 30 MPH in a -40C chill? The car would choke up like an iceburg! I can run dual fuel, retune for the fall, and save 33% now for under $50. I'm not dropping hundreds of man-hours and thousands in test equipment to see if I might be successful. I can save those thousands during this summer. FAHGETABOUTIT! Too risky from a safety perspective. As long as I'm buying gasoline, the Road Taxman won't come a knocking with an MPG tester, and I won't tell him that I get over 60 MPG on my little six in the summer and 40 MPG in the winter. My own 1979 Hybrid upgrade. And I can fix it without a bunch of test equipment. I still think Hydrogen from Air is possible, and that it's probably a better way to deal with cold temperatures than carrying a hydrogen fuel-cell or mixing up a 50-50 mix of alcohol and water to make it work. If you have to add any chemical to make the Hydrogen electrolyser work, you'll eventually see that product treated like an Oil Market commodity as well, and that doesn't make sense. Gotta ponder some more on this whole business. I did learn that regular air contains Methane, but I don't think there's enough to efficiently collect it, or that it would be a good engine fuel. Henry Ford would have done it when he was trying to sell farmers on changing from horse-drawn wagons to his trucks in the 20's. That's where I'm at with it. Too many other things to do.
I wanted to add my two cents about the possibilities and myths about free hydrogen from electrolosis. I think it's possible. To that end I don't think it can be produced with an onboard system to fuel a car, alone that is. Which brings up the possiblility of supplimenting gasoline. What I've read on the internet and seen on TV there are some claims of 50% improved gas milage from these systems. This would mean that 50% of the fuel burned is hydrogen...in simple terms. I think a 10% gain would be ambitious. Here's why. Not one of the claims state how much gas can be produced. Watching the machine in process shows some bubbles of gas being produced. But, nobody measures it. Additionally nobody meters it. It's simply dumped straight in to the air intake or either a carburated car or a fuel injected car. In the case of the fuel injected car the O2 sensor is disconnected. They don't explain why. How is the computer to adjust the fuel intake to the engine if the key sensor is disconnected? I don't understand. In a fuel injected car a faulty (not functional) O2 sensor will cause the computer in to a limp mode which actually will cause a drastic drop in efficiency due to a overly rich running condition. I a carburated system adding hydrogen will simply enrichen the mixture resulting in no reduction of gasoline usage at all. These overly simple systems should do nothing to improve fuel milage at all! Without knowing how much hydrogen is produced there is no way to adjust the carburator leaner (changing the metering rods or metering jets)and not cause damage to the engine. In a fuel injected car the same is true. A rich mixture will damage the catalytic converter very quickly. This will occur simply by disconnecting the O2 sensor. Nobody explains how hydrogen does not damage metals in the fuel and engine of the car. Hydrogen is very corrosive to aluminum, steel, stainless steel and others. I'm not qualified to say that this process is not possible or to debunk the myths but the above questions will have to be answered before I go off and buy or build such a system. It is quite obvious that hydrogen can fuel an internal combustion engine as will methane, ethanol and in the case of diesel engines vegatable oil. Someone please explain how adding fuel reduces fuel usage.
Lot of thought in that! The real geeks on this HydrOXY path are at a point where they are measuring production. It's a major problem, now. Some are over-producing and they know that if they bleed it off into the air, it will Explode. The one option is to build another process to return it to its Waterous state. These same geeks have rewired the OBD computers and O2, MAP and MAF systems to make them give real readings with HydrOXY as a booster to gasoline, or as a straight 100% fuel. What they also do is trim back the gasoline flow to use up the Hydrogen Oxygen mix. One bunch of geeks (Say it with love and respect, until they start selling them ) have discovered that they can get TWO types of Hydrogen Gas. Single Molecule (POWERFUL) and Double Molecule (LOW HOCTANE ). The Monatomic is a big find, because they can produce less and get more gaseous Hydrogen - smaller Electrolysers.) They need superheating to get it, but it can't be done in the regular plastic systems. So they use a completely enclosed Stainless Steel canister. One guy, Bob Boyce, is some kind of Guru in this Hydrogen cell production and has working units in his own vehicle(s) producing 100% fuel for the car. It takes up the Tire cavity. Lots of info on his work, his drawings and Sensor schematics. And he wants people to freely download and build them - no hooks, no books, no tricks, nothing to sell! BUT, its still a work in progress. So he's got a Yahoo website (Journeyman grade) for serious players/lurkers (like me) and all the files. And chimes in on the Newbie site looking for folks who are past the tire-kicker stage and ready to go the next level. Serious folk go here (they ask for a 200 word intro as part of the screening to approve new members, to keep the tire-kickers out and deniers): http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WorkingWatercar/ Tire-kickers go here (worth while, but very rude and dangerous to heart patients sometimes): http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Watercar/ I haven't joined this one, but since a lot of newbies don't read the Newbie documents, they often get sent here. It's a good site. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hydroxy/ What you'll find is that the second site gets a lot of dumb posts, on stuff you never commented on, and you spend hours reading dumb stuff. Dumb Questions don't exist, but there's a lot of dumb stuff. And if you really want to go to the Illuminati-Level. There's another Hydrogen Oxygen site that goes way beyond merely fuel generation, and uses it to generate energy (think Nikola Tesla grade) Nobody talks down, but if you haven't read the major files, they just ignore and move on. These guys have more MonAtomic Hydrogen info, than the WorkingWaterCar group, but ICE fuel cells, which they call Mark 3, level 3 or Shandy, is not where they're at. The goal with them is a stabilized Level 4. Tesla stuff. Smart folks, very focussed, open to good ideas, closed to twits. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/joecellfreeenergydevice/ So far, the idea of these related sites is to prevent anyone who has succeeded from being suppressed (conspiracy theories abound), so they ask those who have succeeded, to put up their general descriptions, schematics, decent drawings and pictures to add them to the Public Domain. The hope is that no boogie-men will come knocking. Nobody mentions it. It's a given. That help??? :banghead3:
Here's a taste of the kinds of technology the HydrOxy WorkingWaterCar and JoeCell groups consider: http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/afep012.htm Can you imagine the copper wire you'd save, if you were Ford, GM or a house-builder? They need ideas to overcome all kinds of issues (EMF factors, Sealants, Alloys, Circuits, etc.). AND the big rub, at the end of it all, is that Hydrogen is not a Renewable gas! What we've got on the third rock from the Sun, is all we'll ever have! No one raises that issue, either because they don't know, or because it is so abundant right now.
I can accept that the explosion caused by the HydrOxy boost would be more effective. In the documents, there are files about treating the metals, changing gaskets, etc. They often tell newbies to go back and read those. Good detailed instructions too. The Stainless they use is a non-magnetic 304, 304L, 316 or 316L grades. Platinum is considered the best. The first ones were built on non-computer cars, and that simplicity works for me. All the EFIE and sensor stuff is complicating their progress, but they've built work-arounds and achieved cleaner emissions. They don't use chemicals that attack the metal. but they do 'cure' the metal so that the water can be efficiently electrolized. Distilled water has too much resistance and salt-water would wreck an engine before it got idling smoothly. That and other aspects are why I still lurk, and also why I still think that humid air is the way to go - no tanks. There's 3 ways of breaking down water to HH and O. Steam, Chemical and Electricity. These guys are on the electricity. The Fuel-Cell cars get their tanks of 5,000 PSI Hydrogen from Natural Gas steam distillers. Water steam seems easier, chemical might be even easier. I don't know.
AND! For you lucky Americans, you can get a Tax Rebate for it. We on the other hand, get Carbon Taxed (in two provinces, this year.) You have to apply to the EPA and provide 'periodic' evidence of your progress. Some can even get a grant. I don't know the details.
TBird, here's the site that publishes the Chapter 10 file on the WorkingWaterCar yahoo group site. You can download it as a PDF or view it as a Web page. Scroll over the links because they may be LARGE PDF files. Chapter 10, cuts out the fluff and tells it pretty straight. This way you don't have to register to get it. http://www.free-energy-info.com/ http://www.free-energy-info.com/Chapt10.html The author, Patrick Kelly is a frequent contributor to these Hydrogen tech sites, also. Here's where I got the info that Hydrogen is not a Renewable resource: http://www.pritchardpower.com/Other Alternatives.html Most of the serious Hydrogen electrolyser guys seem to have come from Australia, New Zealand or the Phillipines, unless the others were more discreet about their successes.
I'm no chemist but if you continually take the H out of water then the world will have too much O. We'll all be killed as O is actually poison to humans. Ohhh Noooo!
I think if someone actually thinks they can power an ICE with electrolosis derived Hydrogen they are smoking some serious dope.
