Salvage Title and collectable cars

With regards to my OT Pontiac Custom S convertible, more a non-roof then a long-roof... which fits me fine as get long of tooth...

Okay, I'm going to admit ignorance here....
I've seen guys warn others about not buying cars with salvage titles. I never had experience with this until I registered my '69 Pontiac After the purchase.
I am the 4th person to hold title to the car #2 being the original owner's daughter, #3 my friend, who owned the car for a couple years and only logged a couple thousand miles on it. James, my friend, bought the car from the original owner himself, whom had kept meticulous track of service and reg. maintenance. I have a folder fat with service records and major maintenance repair, including an overhaul at 108,000mi as well as the body shop records for the repairs made after the car had been involved in it's fateful accident. I think I even have the hwy patrol accident report. I have had 4 body men look over the car each of whom examined closely the rear quarter repair and all stated the car was in excellent condition and a good candidate for restoration. One guy was an authorized appraiser, who gave it the best report. (Note: With each, I would bear in mind, each wanted my business and all see big $$$ signs when ever approached by people with 'muscle cars'.)

Here are my questions. Why should I be concerned about the "salvage" declaration?
Should it play into the level of restoration I put into it should I go that route one day?
The car is a rare model, one of under 2,800 built, and among the few that survive; does that work in my favor as to the cars 'possible' collectibility or does the title status make the car awash to a serious collector?
Plans are to keep the car as long as possible so, at some point, just to keep it fresh looking, strong running (which it is) and safe, I'm going to have to do something. I just as well do a quality refresh but how far would you guys go in returning it to factory originality and show and shine prominence?

Thanks.

 

In my opinion the salvage title should have little bearing on the value of the car if the repair work is transparent. Same thing with mileage. Few care if a restored car started out as a 250,000-mile beater as long as the resto has been performed thoroughly & properly. (Besides, with 5 digit speedos & dash swaps, who knows?) Mileage, or lack thereof, only adds to value when it can be documented that it is truly very low.

Salvage titles and mileage have much more bearing on depreciating daily driven vehicles.

 

I know it won't really answer your questions, but here's my take on old cars. And, being a big time Pontiac fan, I can totally relate to your going back and forth. But it really boils down to what you want to do. I love my Ponchos, but I'm going to drive them as much as possible so it doesn't make sense to go back to original. I'm putting disc brakes on them, AC if they didn't have it, and putting a 4 spd in place of the 3 spd that tanked. I'd rather have a car that I feel is safe and reliable with door dings than a trailer queen. If you enjoy polishing the car and sitting around at car shows, that's great because I like looking at those cars. But I know me and realistically my cars will never be 'show' cars. I don't have the patience or attention to detail.

Another point is that rare and desirable aren't always the same as we wagon owners know. Yep, your Custom S is a low production version, but it will never bring GTO money. In the end, if you can sell it for what you have into it or slightly less, you are miles ahead. I don't think a salvage title will really make that much of a difference, especially if you have all the documentation to back up what happened. Someone who is truly interested in it will dig into that info and can get beyond the label.

But right now if the plan is to drive it and enjoy it, I'd make it how you want it. If your changes are bolt on, save all the original parts. Paint is a tough call because you are right, it's only a survivor once. But if it needs paint to make it last, paint it how you want it. A repaint is a repaint, even if it's back to the original color.

And of course money. A full resto can easily snowball into a HUGE money pit. Heck, even just freshening something up can do that. Many of my decisions are made for me based on my available funding.

 

Thanks for 'weighing' in Weighty-Eight!

teej, you've summed up my feelings precisely. I like my cars because I can drive them and I don't pop an aneurysm every time a bike or chunk of hail or a stray baseball thumps the outer skin. The car was delivered in Champagne gold but was shaved of almost all its identifiers and was re-shot in Matador red which furthers the 'this hand or that hand' choices. Good advice all, I appreciate the input.

I'm still interested in others thoughts, thanks.

 

Unfortunately Mark, your Tempest Custom S convertible will forever be saddled with the 'salvaged' title.

It makes little difference as long as you are enjoying the vehicle, but it will affect the market value should you decide to sell it. The fact that you have complete documentation should mitigate those negative factors somewhat.

Here are my questions:
1. Why should I be concerned about the "salvage" declaration?
Should it play into the level of restoration I put into it should I go that route one day?
A. Yes. The vehicle will always be saddled with the 'salvage' title. Because of that, IMO, it would be useless to do a total 'back to factory' restoration on it.

2. The car is a rare model, one of under 2,800 built, and among the few that survive; does that work in my favor as to the cars 'possible' collectibility or does the title status make the car awash to a serious collector?
A. I don't think it's going to be rare enough to counteract the 'salvage' title deficit.

Plans are to keep the car as long as possible so, at some point, just to keep it fresh looking, strong running (which it is) and safe, I'm going to have to do something.
3. I just as well do a quality refresh but how far would you guys go in returning it to factory originality and show and shine prominence?
A. I would just do what you want to it and not worry about the title issue while you enjoy it.

Generally, a late model vehicle that's been 'totalled' by a collision, then repaired will lose around 30% of its market value. As the vehicle gets older this 30% difference becomes less of a concern. But then, when the vehicle starts going into the 'collectable' category, it again becomes more important.

You've got good documentation on it. One thing I would suggest Mark is pictures. It would be nice to have 'before', 'during' and 'after' photos of the repair process. If you don't have any, it might be worth your while to track them down.

 

Thanks Krash, I've often thought about contacting the man who bought it new, this idea of yours may be a good reason well worth following up on. I'll start with finding someone with a Palm Springs phone book.... What are the chances the ol' desert rat still lives in the same house???

 

Mark, why don't you get the opinion of the appraiser He's actually the one who can give you the real answer. I would get at least 3 real opinions.
I've dealt in the classic car market all of my life As a restorer buyer & seller Dealing mostly Pontiacs,Chryslers, & Corvettes & going to B&J Russo-Steele Mecum Bloomington Gold etc as both buyer & seller.

If you decide that you don't want to spend the $$$ for a frame off I can show you how to make it look it for way less than the frame off.

 

Thanks Bob, I'll keep that in mind. When I'm a bit above water, work wise, I'll PM you as to a good time to talk it over with you.
I'd been considering having my Nephew-in-law-to-be do some of the metal straightening and few bits of rust repair, filling and
blocking it then blending the good and the bad paint so the car is presentable for Ian's senior prom.
Sean does good work and will do it at a very fair price cause he likes me. I've done some art work for a Pontiac guy whose
sending me a set of poverty caps , a couple stock 7 x 15 steel rims and a GTO hood which leaves me in need of two steel rims.
Plans are to coat them to match the body, wrap them in big and little rubber all for looks. Setting the Rally IIs back with the 14"
chrome steelies I bought the car with.
That was the real bummer of the purchase. James found the box he'd kept in his mom's garage that contained all 4 original 6-slot,
mag style hub caps plus an extra set of 6, 2 mag and 4 full, Tempest caps.

Here's my list of what I figured I'd address, James replaced the carpet ,rebuilt and re-covered the bench and rear seat. The door
panels are rough but look cool. I was thinking of having an upholsterer create a set of true padded tuck and roll panels that match
the stock pattern and put back the originals in dry storage. Replace the windshield frame covers on each side and send the dash off
to Just Dashes as the years in the desert distorted and dried out the originals pretty well.
Between James and I, the engine's been maintained and the front and rear suspension,bushings and brakes gone through.
I need a fan shroud which is nearly impossible to find. I think Year One and OPG have replacements tho. NPD may too.

One hold back on the interior refresh is a detail added by the man who first owned it. He had a full tonneau cover made for it. It slid into the
rear trim band that holds the boot cover down and was fastened atop the rear panels, door panels and dash using twist lock fasteners.
They're all in place and are a great conversation starter. I thin having a replacement tonneau may be cool top have. The car looked bad
ass with it in place and could be taken down to 1 place, driver only seating and, with a quick zip would protect the interior from rain
without putting the top up. Perhaps another cause of the dash.s poor condition now that I think of it. Talk about the furthest thing from a full
sized, 8 passenger Station Wagon... Much more Darrin Stevens than Mike Brady... wait, I didn't like the second Darrin and Mike was kind of a wuss.

How about, much more Colonel Tony Nelson than Carol Brady.
Yea,... that's better...

I'm done for now ......

 

I like what KK has said and I agree with his assessment. The bottom line is that the salvage title will always be a bargaining chip for a buyer. KK has covered all the angles pretty well IMO. Not to mention that he has a lifetime of experience assessing damaged vehicles.
I never bought dealer auction cars with a salvage title when I had my used car lot because they were just too hard to sell. That is not to say that I haven't seen perfectly good cars that had the title mark on them because I have seen many. Trying to convince a buyer that the car is fine is difficult. One thing that KK said is very true....the further the car gets away from the accident date the less it matters. Until you do a complete resto and try to get top dollar for it. Since you love the car, I would just do a light refresh the way you want it, enjoy it and take care of it. That way, if you DO want to sell it someday, you won't be strapped into trying to get big bucks for it. I think you will have a much greater chance of getting your money out of it, or closer to it, if you just have a nice example of that model that looks honest and well cared for.

 

So I should just make a Judge clone then, huh? Ha Ha.

Thanks Foxy!

Here's a little 'rough' idea of my plan...

 

Looks gorgeous!

 

Good idea. I'd put some chrome trim rings on those rally wheels - my only suggestion.

 

Muscle cars & used cars are different animals & different type of buyer & market. I sold a 435 horse 67 Convertible for $150,000 with a salvage title & that was exactly the same price as a comparable car with a good title.

Some states issue a salvage title if the car has been unlicensed for 5 years or more &someone goes to reregister unless they are the last owner they get a salvage title & have to go through the inspection process. In the classic car world it's really a moot issue. You can clear it off if you do all the paperwork I actually do this for a living

 

State DMV's issue 'salvaged' title for a reason - for consumer protection. I personally don't think the rules should be circumvented - for any reason.

I also wouldn't have any problem buying a (good) vehicle with a salvage title, provided the seller has full documentation on the reason it was salvaged, and the repairs.

 

I have to admit, I assume the salvage title is due to the accident.
Is California one of those states that your talking about? I will go back through
the paper work to see if it shows that it had been continuously titled or if it may, in fact,
have set foe a time. My guess is it is the former as I'm pretty sure when James bought it,
that was something he'd asked about. The whole situation s goofy. I need to resolve to not
worry about it, keep the car, fix it nice and drive it. If someone wants the car bad enough,
he'll have to work hard to pry it from me as it is.

Krash, the poverty caps I'm using are enough for me. No beauty rings. They sing too loud at speed
and try to drown out the exhaust tones...
Caps floating in the center of red rims surrounded by black. No more raised white letters but I'd consider
Coker redlines...