Hot start issue

Discussion in 'General Automotive Tech' started by cammerjeff, Oct 28, 2015.

  1. cammerjeff

    cammerjeff Longroofs Rule!

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    I have always heard about cars with Hot Starting issues, but have never had one until now. I actually got around to changing the Transmission Fluid and Filter, and installing a shift improver kit to get rid of the ridiculously low 2nd and 3rd shift points of my stock 78 Catalina Safari's T-350. The car usually shifted into 3rd gear before the car reached 25 mph.
    Now it shifts crisper and doesn't shift into 2nd until around 23 mph, and 3rd at about 45 mph. And will hold 2nd gear until well past 60mph if I stay in the throttle. I am much happier with the cars performance even if it did take me all day Sunday to accomplish because I believed the directions about the Governor flyweights and installed the Automobile/Light Truck weights 1st, and I think the trans actually shifted earlier than stock, then installed the 2wd Medium duty truck weights and it shifted alittle better than stock, I then put in the 4wd HD truck weights and am happy with the trans.
    I didn't drive the car until Tuesday, nice cool 60F day, drove the car on the highway for about 45 minutes, pulled into a gas station filled it up, went to pull out and nothing, not even a click of the starter Solenoid. Checked for power at the battery, 12.5V, all the other electrical systems worked fine. Pushed the car away from the Costco Pumps, waited 15 minutes and the starter worked fine.
    On the way home I stopped at the corner store just to see what would happen, and it did it again, opened the hood and let it cool for 5 minutes and it started, just barely but it started. Now the Question is did the transmission work have anything to do with the starter issue? Or just a coincidence?
    I haven't checked anything yet, and the car does have the original 38+ year old battery cables on it, so I plan to replace the cables, Check for corrosion at the starter and Battery Conections, check engine ground straps, and buy and install a heat shield on the starter Solenoid.
    Any other Ideas on what would suddenly cause this issue, never had the issue all summer when it was actually hot.
     
  2. chopt50wgn

    chopt50wgn Member

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    I think you answered your own question. Those 38 yr. old cables. I bet if you changed them, you solved the problem.
     
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  3. OldFox

    OldFox Curmudgeon

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    Have fun changing that cable. It takes 2 guys, a lift, several extensions and swivels, and a lot of cussin'. One guy has to be hanging over the fender up in the air and the other guy has to have arms like a monkey to snake around everything and be able to work by feel without seeing what he's doing. This is further complicated by the fact that aftermarket cables have straight ends instead of 90's.
    It's really gonna be a fun job. It only took me 5 days working alone on my back to do mine.
     
  4. Silvertwinkiehobo

    Silvertwinkiehobo "Everything that breaks starts with 'F.'"

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    It never took me five days to change a main cable, even when I was just getting started in wrenching. But, that's not why I'm posting.:footinmouth: You can also have a bad solenoid winding that opens when the starter heats up, causing the no clicky-clicky. It's really hard to test for that as everything cools off before you are ready to do an ohms test. I would recommend replacing it with a known good one when you pop down to replace the cable.
     
  5. OldFox

    OldFox Curmudgeon

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    That's because:
    1. I forgot what a PITA they were.
    2. Yer not 70 years old.
    3. You didn't do it in the driveway with the car on jackstands.
    4. It wasn't winter.
    5. A bad back only allowed limited time under the car.
    6. Given what you have said earlier, I doubt you could even get under a car now.
    7. Don't profess your skills until you've done one as above.

    We'll wait until Jeff reports on how successful he was.
     
  6. jmt455

    jmt455 Well-Known Member

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    Jeff,
    I had a 400 Pontiac in a 79 Trans Am that drew so much current on a hot start attempt, it melted the battery terminal off the end of the ground cable!
    New cables (2GA) will make a difference.
    I would have a current draw test done on the starting circuit. You might need a new starter and/or solenoid.
    You might want to install a high torque mini-starter and heat blanket on your Catalina; lots of positive comments from Pontiac owners on the Ames and F body forums.
    If that doesn't totally eliminate the issue, you might have to move the solenoid out from its stock location (like typical Ford solenoid location).
     
  7. Silvertwinkiehobo

    Silvertwinkiehobo "Everything that breaks starts with 'F.'"

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    1. I just did the three cables for my dad's '90 F150; granted, while not that difficult, I am 50, with a bad heart, bad knees and I'm 480 LBS.
    2. See 1 above
    3. I had to put Dad's truck way up on jackstands, and getting it up on its Twin I-Beam suspension is always a hassle
    4. It was an extremely hot day, and the beer didn't come till I was done
    5. I'm 6'6" tall and have been overtall since junior high school; I also cracked my tailbone when I was nine
    6. It's a serious hassle, and I try not to do it if I don't have to (no one was available to help me with Dad's truck)
    7. I have 23 year's experience as a mechanic and driveability/emissions/electrical diagnostic technician; I had to quit working two years ago this month because of my Atrial Fibrillation and bad knees.
     
  8. cammerjeff

    cammerjeff Longroofs Rule!

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    Well I found the issue last night, I will still put on new cables and the heat shield, but I found the passenger side exhaust manifold is cracked, and with it being a Buick 350 the starter is on the passenger side like a Chevy. The crack is blowing hot exhaust gas directly on the starter Solenoid!!!!! Now I will be looking thru the pile of old exhaust manifolds for the 77 Manifolds that came off my old Century Wagon. I hope they are the same.
    I am getting old, I can't even hear the exhaust leak when I am in the car, I can hear it plain as day standing outside of it.
     
  9. OldFox

    OldFox Curmudgeon

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    Jeff,
    You lucked out. Passenger side cables are a breeze, regardless of what they're in. Driver side Pontiac cables are a nightmare.

    Hobo, I have 42 years of mechanic experience and owned 2 repair shops. I was one of the first bunch in the nation to take and pass the ASE (NIASE back then) exams.
     
  10. Silvertwinkiehobo

    Silvertwinkiehobo "Everything that breaks starts with 'F.'"

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    Jeff, excellent find! Here's to those manifolds fitting.
     
  11. MikeT1961

    MikeT1961 Well-Known Member

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    I was going to say that it have the engine raving way, way too high in town, since it is meant to upshot into direct drive by 25 mph under light throttle. The kick down cable/rod is also meant to vary the up shift points depending on throttle position. On my 78 Buick, light throttle gave the 1/2 shift at about 12 mph, and the 2/3 shift at about 22 mph. Under full throttle, the 1/2 was at about 47, and the 2/3 at something north of 75 mph. Intermediate throttle shift points were somewhere in between, depending on load. The car had the Tow package, so it did have some sort of shift kit added, and that allowed improved shift quality. Shifts were very quick on that car.
     

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