Modified stock 307, or 350 crate?

Alright, I'll look into that, thanks again for the info.

I can get the motor out of a truck or van at the junkyard without having to buy the whole truck or van, it's a salvage yard. I've just gotta pull it, but they'll bring it to my house for me to do that for $50 or so, I live just up the road.

Most of 'em are in the 150-200k mile range, though probably not drivable 'cause it's either missing a wheel or sitting on flats. I think I can wrangle some wheels and tires to see if it moves though.

I might be able to find something on Craigslist, though vehicles do not rot out here. The only ones that are rotted are from up your way, down around Florida, or the coast, and typically when they make it here, there isn't a thing worth keeping on them.

 

I would absolutely go with a TBI unit from that link you provided. They include the harness, pump, and everything. You can bet your last dollar I'll be buying their 351C kit for $895 and guaranteed it'll run better than anything Ford, Holley, or Edelbrock ever made.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Ford_TBI_Convesion_Kit-14-13.html

I'm all for this. In fact I'm changing my plans now. Was going to have a test n tune done with the 1406 carb on there now. I'm doing the TBI conversion. I'm pulling the cam to check its specs and if it's weak I'm going CompCams DEH265. And then I'm gonna test n tune with that combo.

THANK YOU for that link. I was thinking of cobbling together a 302 EFI intake with some form of intake adapter to make it fit the 351C block and heads, but now there's no sense in doing that. I can use TBI and use a regular round air cleaner and if I tuck the wiring in right no one will know the difference except my right foot and my wallet!

 

DR, I think you need to take a really close look at the type of driver you are, and what your goal for the wagon is. I know you think you've done that, but your text in the original post is basically a debate you're having with yourself.

Is the wagon going to be a DD and a fun vehicle? It can be both but one has to take priority over the other. I notice you also have the Camaro.

In my way of thinking you have to decide:
1) Primarily a DD, with emphasis on economy - 307 w/ TBI
2) Fun wagon, balls to the wall - 350, or whatever you can afford.

 

Lemme clarify, what I want is a bit more power, and a bit more gas mileage. I know it can be done with TBI. I know I can get about 200 horses outta that 307, admittedly, for roughly the same money, I could possibly get the same or more out of a 350.

But that brings me to fuel economy, I don't really like driving that Camaro year round, it rides like crap. The Camaro is the toy, the wagon is the car I'd rather be driving when I don't feel like toying around, which is most of the time. 'Cause too me, ride quality is one of a few things that makes or breaks a car, a toy can ride like the springs are made of solid steel, the daily driver cannot. The Camaro is a good grocery getter 'cause I can't get too many groceries with it. Keeps me from going broke, and it gives me more gas to put in the tank I'd rather be driving.

So, can I get about 19MPG in town out of the 307 with TBI? I don't drive as lead footed in the wagons 'cause, well, it's just stupid. They are not designed for that, they are highway vehicles, Cruisers, as mine is called. Mainly what I want is about 40-60 more horses and hopefully a bit more gas mileage. I will be swapping the trans to a 700R4, 'cause I don't particularly care for the 200 series that's in it. If need be, I will re-gear the 2.93 diff that's in it, this car was solid in Florida after all, so I wouldn't be surprised if that gearing isn't really ideal for mountains. I honestly know nothing about gear ratio's.

So to answer your question, fuel economy is more important than adding at on of power. For now, anyway. This may be revised many years down the road, but for the time being, fuel economy is the key. I care about green, the green in my wallet.

This is mostly going to be my daily, I screw around sometimes, so a little extra grunt is fun, but not needed. The Camaro, as I said, is the toy. Which, is why the $10 back tires, well, the passenger side one mostly, is going bald.

EDIT:

Did some math, rebuild of the 307 would run me about $2,500, including TBI, new 700R4, $1,200-1,600, Total, $3,700-4,100, cheaper than a crate, probably work out better, dunno for sure.

 

If you're swapping to a 700R4 you HAVE to use a Chevy engine block or some form of BOP to Chevy adapter. Some 200-4R transmissions, if I remember right, are a dual pattern bellhousing so will fit either, but typically they have BOP patterns.

Don't think the 200-4R is any weaker than a 700R4 because it's not. Guys build the 200-4R behind turbo GNX's and all sorts of Buick, Cadillac, Olds, and Pontiac mills from mild to wild. 200-4R also doesn't have that ridiculous 1-2 drop that the 700R4 has. You can build either transmission to withstand any sort of punishment but once you get over 400-450hp and 450lbs-ft tq, you'll find the smart builders and rodders using the 200-4R. The sun shell and other bits just can't hold up. But you can build a 200-4R to handle 1000hp.

For fuel economy, DEFINITELY get the 200-4R. First is taller as discussed (so no crazy drop from 1st to 2nd) and overdrive is also taller, 0.67 instead of 0.70. Gearing for both:

200-4R
1st: 2.74
2nd: 1.57
3rd: 1.00
4th: 0.67

700R4:
1st: 3.06
2nd: 1.63
3rd: 1.00
4th: 0.70

One other consideration, if you go with a Chevy engine, hope yours is or try to find a 200-4R with the dual pattern bellhousing.

 

Yippy, occupant------------ Now I don't have to write all this...and you did far better than I would have. The 2004R seems to get bad publicity. Someday others will learn it's a tough LITTLE tranny which will fit right where a 350 was. Minor crossmember setback and adding electronic torgue converter kickdown and it's a bolt in.
My 55 runs plenty good with 305, enough for a grocery getter, and the fuel mileage is better than any other tranny I've used.

 

This site is a treasure trove of info.

Anyway, after looking into it, I'm gonna keep the 307, unless I can find a good alternative. It's the most budget friendly option. If the parts car is a 1980-1984, then it will have the 307 I want. There are two 307 variants, later ones have roller lifters and swirl burn heads, post 1985 307's.

The pre-1985 variant is the one I want, it shares the intake with the Olds 350, and the head ports are much larger, same size as a 350.

I may use a 305, if I can get one that runs, possibly a 350, but I doubt it. It doesn't seem to be needed. I know the 307 is a tough motor, and, I've seen proof of this. The ones with roller lifters are garbage, the 80-84 307's are good though.

 

Like I wrote, I've only had one 307, and it was already worn out when the guy who bought my wagon from me installed it. Around a 1974 307 I think. With the equally worn out powerglide it barely moved the wagon. I was just happy to buy my old 55 back.
The 305 I got had recently been rebuilt by a real Chevy guy wiht large valve heads and RV cam. Switching to a rebuilt 2004R was an iffy decision but glad I did it.
Oddly I got it at a large swap meet from an El Camino guy swapping to a 454 and 7004R ! It was just rebuilt with a date tag and new torque converter. Something like $350!
With all the junk I own I have to do it the old way, swap meets, trades, and a shadetree.

 

Yup. You're right, dead. The early 307's were considerably better than the later swirl heads. I had an 88 Electra wagon that I put a built 455 in. My buddy wanted an Electra wagon SO bad because he liked mine so much. I was in the used car biz at the time and I found him the one he wanted. A black Electra woody, 1982. That 'ol wagon would run circles around the later 307's. While I would blow him off on the road I did notice that he stayed with me way better than a lot of cars could. He was a mechanic and tweaked that engine and, while it was no tire smoker, it did have snort for a 307. It was way faster than mine before I switched engines. My 88 wagon, when stock, against his 82 was a loser in the speed department.

 

The 307 you are referring too is a Chevrolet motor, ENTIRELY different from the olds 307. Lotta confusion there. The Oldsmobile 307 was only built from 1980-1990.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_engines_307#307

The Chevy 307 was a 283 stroker, they where produced til 1973. They where not good motors, 'least not as far as I've heard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_V8_engine#307

The Olds 307 was genuine Oldsmobile, not a bored, or stroked motor. The early 307's had the same intake and head port diameter as a 350. The 350 Olds, and 350 Chevy, they where different, the 350 Olds had a wider, heavier block than the 350 Chevy. The 307 is tougher than the 305 'cause, until it got roller lifters, it shared the camshaft with all Olds V8's, 307-455. It also has a heavier block casting than a 305, and most small blocks of the era. It ain't a powerhouse, but it is a tough motor. That and the 305 is a bored 262. Chevrolet was good for boring and stroking motors back then, some worked, some failed, some where destined to be boat anchors. The Chevy 307 is one of those boat anchors, though I've seen a 283 block turned into a coffee table before, not something you want to stub your toe on,

I know a little more than your average twenty-two year old, sometimes anyway. I've nothing better to do than read since I lost my job last month.

 

Sorry to add to the cornfusion. My education stopped when I became a twenty-one year old and realized I knew it all!

Didn't even consider the two 307's as different.
Sorry about the job lose. Way back in 94 the great company I worked for decided it didn't need us union truck drivers. Lucky I just had 30 years in and turned 55. The magic retirement figures.
The man who wrote the song "take this job and shove it" also had worked there. I have no idea what inspired him to write such a song but I told them the same thing!

 

Allow me to clarify what I meant by saying I know more than most twenty-two year olds.

I did not intend it to sound like I know everything, I will quietly listen to my elders until I have something to say that might actually impress them. Like knowing that the Chevy and Olds 307's are entirely different.

I don't claim to know much compared to my elders, just more than most people my age. 'Cause I was raised with the mentality that, if you can't fix the car yourself, don't buy it. Coming from poverty can make you a bit smarter than people who are handed everything.

I am just, as I said, smarter than most people my age, not all, but most. Most can't get there nose out of a phone, can't get anywhere without a GPS system, and can't live without facebook, twitter, and all those other social media websites. I use none of them, I don't have a "Smart" phone, I have a very dumb phone, and I'd rather get lost on a journey to parts unknown than follow a GPS around. My phone is a LG220C, if you want a laugh, google it. It does NOT have an app for that.

To put it bluntly, I like wagons, 'cause, I am the opposite of most people my generation, and my age, I don't like cars that sound like a chainsaw from hell. I like old rock and roll, though I will admit I prefer modern Metal, not modern rock so much however. I don't like what most people my generation consider metal either, my liking for metal is more complex than some twenty something guy screaming into a microphone painted like he's ready for Halloween.

Anyway, hope I've cleared the air a bit on that sentence. Didn't mean sound like a know it all, I just know a bit more than most people my age. As I said initially, I think it should be clear what I meant now.

As for a job, I'll figure something out, I sold a 2001 Sebring sedan, 2.7L V6, for $2,000, which I only had $200 in. Turns out I'm only getting $1,000 from it, 'cause my friend had to spend that much doing a lower end rebuild. Motor was oil starved, I didn't notice the faint noise until after he put about a thousand miles on it. Only reason I cut him a deal like that is 'cause he's been my friend for a decade. Pretty close to half my life. I'm getting paid bi-weekly, he owes me $800 over roughly the next 7 weeks, so I'm good for now. Though that money was SUPPOSED to fund my wagon. Oh how life kicks you when you are down.

 

The difference between a chevy and olds motors can be checked rather easily - 4 bolts on a chevy valve cover, 7 on an olds!
Any chevy, including big blocks can be bolted in easily, if a chevy's coming out, and an olds is the same way, including their big block.
Switching back and forth isn't worth it, IMO - too much aggrevation!!

Olds 307 has some power, and I believe Cadillac had fuel injection on them in the mid-80's.
IMO, if you could find 3:23 or 3:43 rear end gears for your wagon, you'd be real happy, all around!!

 

Dead Reckon as far as I'm concerned you are a car guy and don't need to explain or clairify anything. Good luck on your engine and your future playing with station wagons.

 

On tuesday night I found this crate engine on Jegs,

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/19244450/10002/-1?parentProductId=1329887

It's almost turnkey, not quite, but it could be made turnkey for about another $1,000 or less. Cheapest new build I've seen, thus far anyway.

So that is another option, and it would seem a viable alternative to a 307, as building a 307 would cost roughly the same as buying and completing that 350.

Albeit, that motor has a 4bbl carb, instead of a TBI, I could swap that later. It also has a dress kit, which I'm not fond of for use in this scenario. I'm not too worried about it for the time being, as I will have an alternative car to drive if I can't afford gas at the time.

Anyhow, would've responded with this yesterday, but I spent pretty much the whole day at the hospital yesterday with my father. He was supposed to have another catheterization on an artery, but they checked him over and said he didn't need one. So, twelve hours in the hospital 'cause some third party heart doctor told him he had a problem. 7:43AM to about 7:30PM yesterday, by the time I actually got home I just vegetated in front of the TV until about 11PM. Long story short, they told my father to quit smoking, good luck with that, I've gotten him to smoke less though. But, in the long run, my father is fine. I've gotta come up with money somewhere to get him one of those electronic cigarette kits, it's the smoke that'll do him in.

So, back to topic, yet again, my mind swings t'wards a 350. And I'm thinking it's going to stay there 'cause I can get used brackets to make this engine a serpentine belt system for cheap, and convert it to TBI later on. Of course I will clean the brackets up and paint them, noone wants rusty brackets on a new motor with chrome valve covers. When I convert it to TBI later on, I'll reuse this carb on my fathers 307 with an edelbrock non EGR intake, and an electronic distributor to bypass the ECM on that car.

And, to CatModelT, thanks for the support. Every little bit helps, sometimes taking on a project can seem like insanity... I dread the day I have to start peeling the vinyl off, I am not doing much to this car cosmetically until I have the motor in. 'Cause when I put the engine in I'm replacing the control arm bushings, upper and lower ball joints, tie rods, center link, idler arm, everything is gonna be replaced down there. I'm just glad this car has removable control arm bushings.

EDIT:

Literally just found this motor:

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/10067353K3/10002/-1?parentProductId=

It comes with this throttle body kit:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/502-20S/10002/-1

$400 more for a throttle body, dress valve covers I can sell, I don't really want them, I think I can get a little money for them. I think this motor is the best bet for my build.