Light wagons

Roadking, I have thought about that as well. I did own a Chevy Van G-30 with the 6.2. What an engine!!! The torque is enormous! Although the van's curb weight was about 3000kg, the milage was about 14 mpg. And as diesel is twice the price of LPG, I don't think it is going to work.

I think I have identified most mid-size wagons from around 80 and there seems to be only one that would satisfy most requirements: the Fairmont with the 200ci engine.

Gm had actually only the Malibu. The line sixes are not really known (to my knowledge) to be the best engines and the Malibu is about 1700 kg. The same goes for the sisters like the Buick regal, Olds Cutlass, Grand Lemans etc.

Chrysler has the Town & Country. I really like it, but with the 318 engine it won't make such a difference with my Caprice and even with the /6 it still weighs almost 1700 kg. (the only way it could maybe qualify if it has an overdrive)
I also saw a 1978 Plymouth Volare, nice car, with a 318, but as being registered at 1790 kg, the owner told me it gets about 14 mpg (on LPG and confronted to 18mpg as official figure on petrol). Not much difference there either. Officially,fuel usage for the /6 and the 318 were similar (18)!! Keep in mind that a Valiant with the /6, weighing only 1350 kg was advertised for getting 21 mpg at that time. Besides small differences in gear ratio etc, them main difference is the 400kg!

The above figures are at least very doubtfull. The Chrysler T&C with 318 would have 16mpg and the /6 version 20mpg. The similar Plymouth Volare has 18mpg with both the /6 and the 318! Does not really make sense....

Weight seems the biggest problem, as I don't think the engine, like the /6, is so bad.

The fairmont has this enormous advantage of being "only" 1350kg. Together with the 200ci engine this could add up to a wagon with nice power and good fuel efficiency. I just read from someone with a Fairmont, 200ci engine and a 4 speed manual, no ac or power steering, still getting 29mpg!! This is an original car that was ordered for fuel economy!

Just to be complete, I also have looked at the Plymouth Reliant, but that is just not my car. It does weigh only 1150kg, though!!!!

I just looked at some of the data from my former cars. The Omega V6 Station did weigh about 1650kg and even with the really good (modern fuel injected) Ecotec engine, average fuel consumption was not higher then 18 mpg. Maybe I am just looking for the impossible.....

 

I found a nice link, showing mpg rating for a lot of cars up till 83. The origin is:
This dataset was taken from the StatLib library which is maintained at Carnegie Mellon University. The dataset was used in the 1983 American Statistical Association Exposition.

http://www.ailab.si/orange/doc/datasets/auto-mpg.tab

 

Ah, Senri, you're saved brother! You've come to the Good Side of the Ford!

http://www.stationwagonforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2449&page=2

Now you just have to shop around. One of the new members was showing his Sedan, here, and mentioning that there's lots of Fairmont/Zephyrs in dry, sunny, hot Mesa Arizona (No Rust!). Mexico also has a lot of them. I'd bet that Northern New Mexico and Western Texas has some good ones. Most of those regions don't get flooded out, etc.

Here in Canada, it's a lot tougher to find a rust-free car.

 

Senri, what is your goal? It appears that you wish to have an American classic wagon that is light, gets good fuel economy and can also haul your family and cargo on vacation.

Your goal may be too ambitious. You already have a wagon you like except the engine. Your current wagon is already coverted to LPG. I think you ought to keep it, spend the money that you would spend on another car and replace the engine. I don't know about purchasing engines in Europe but just about any GM engine will bolt in and attach to the transmission. How about a 300-350 horsepower 350 crate engine for any of the numerous engine suppliers including GM? You can get them in carburator or FI configurations. The carburator configuration is less expensive and your LPG system would be an easy attachment to the new engine.

I don't think you'll get the fuel milage you are looking for in any 20 year old American wagon of any configuration or weight. You can buy a lot of fuel for the money you would save by going with your origonal plan. Unless you are simply not happy with the Chevrolet that you have. Right now you know what you need to do with your wagon, if you buy a new one you will not know the total condition and have to do all the repairs and the LPG conversion as well. I also don't think you will be happy with a Fairmont with the 200 engine. In any configuration they have less than 90 horsepower. It seems you need more. When my Cougar is in perfect tune it gets 19 mpg in local driving and 24 on the highway and that is with no cargo and no passengers. My Cougar is only 180 pounds heavier than a Fairmont. Also if you find one in perfect condition you will be happy. Otherwise the Fox body owners here can tell you how hard it is to find door and window seals that fit. Stormin' has had to basically manufacture most of his rubber seals from alternate parts and imaginative ideas to get his car back to a very nice condition. I still haven't started those tasks on mine yet.

Good luck in your search and for a final idea as to what will fill your needs.

 

That's right, you've looked into the LPG/LNG option for your cars. Very good counsel, TBird. It takes a lot to substitute the missing/damaged parts. About the only ones that get much attention by parts mfrs, are the 1979 to 1996 Mustangs - floorpans, body parts, gas tanks, weather seals, etc. Not for the Fairmonts. Major adventure. Especially for a Daily Driver car. I still have to get spare taillights and a hood ornament, oh yeah - and a map light!!!

 

Thank you very much for this down to earth advice, Tbird and Norman (and others that contributed, of course). The spare parts point is very good. If you guys have already problems getting these, how would the availability be on this side of the pond? Not good I guess.

I agree that I could buy a lot of fuel, from the money I would invest in the new car. But for me it is certainly a point that I rather spend my money on the hobby of maintaining and improving my car then on gas. And maybe even more important, then on pollution. I know this sounds a bit naive, after the statement that i like american cars, but I still can try to see if I can get the best of both worlds.

The total financial picture is a bit more complicated. I have invested about 10.000 euro in my Caprice. My engine plan, even with a mild 350 (which are easy to come by), would add another 7.000 euro to it. As I don't have a garage anymore, the labour cost of swapping engines and fabricating a new exhaust system are already 3000 or so.

Wagons are still not the most wanted cars around, certainly not the ones with smaller engines. We still live in a country that has the attitude that a real amreican car has a v8, although I guess it will gradually change with current gas prices.
So these cars are not to expensive. To give an example, I saw a 78 Volare with the /6 including LPG conversion (lesser state then my Caprice though) with an asking price of 3500 euro, but will probably go for 3000 or less. My Caprice will sell for 7000 for sure, so that means that I would actually have 4000 + 7000 is 11.000 euros to spend to get it right! I have seen a fairmont going for a price similar.

Of course, in the above example, it is still the question if my fuel consumption would be substantially better and of course if parts would be better available.

I do realise that I won't satisfy all my requirements, and that it will be my decisions which will be more important. Lately, fuel consumption has become more important for me from the enviromental point of view, but I won't deny that the technical challenge is important too! I think that Norman will certainly understand.....

Again, I really appriciate the down to earth input, as you have seem to understand that that is really something I need once in a while, otherwise I would be soaring right out of the atmosphere!!

I have used you as sparring(?) partners to verify my own thoughts. I hope you don't mind.

 

I does seem that at new engine is a lot more expensive there than here. I did not realize this as a mild 350 here is about $4,000. A stock 350 cubic inch engine is less than $2,000. Considering you can purchase a smaller American wagon with the LPG conversion for 3,500 euro is a considerable savings over installing a new engine. I do understand now your dilema.

My wife has a 1992 Thunderbird with the 3.8 liter V6. We had the engine replaced 7 years ago at the Ford dealer. The engine was $1,250. All the other parts (new hoses, belt and oxygen sensors and labor) the total came to $3,940 including the $1,250 for the engine. Also the emissions are as good now as a new Toyota Prius. It was just tested last week. Very clean running.

 

I was debating whether I should start a new thread for this nut-cracker!

How about 10 million fewer cars on US roads in 4 years, and $7.00 per US gallon in 2 years? I can only shudder at what it will cost in Europe!!!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080626.wrubin0626/BNStory/energy/home

 

Norman, the answer is clear. All wagon enthousiasts should drive a Fairmont!!!!

Yes, a new engine is more expensive here. The standard Goodwrench 350 costs about 2500 euro and that is without intake and exhaust manifolds, carb, alternator, waterpump etc etc. If you already have a 350 this is ok, but as my Caprice has the original 307 olds engine, nothing will fit.

Well, even if nothing comes out of this, we still had a very nice talk about wagons anyway!

 

Glad we were helpful.

Just one other comment on the Fairmont/Zephyr body parts. The Fox-bodied Mustang floorpans are 1" shorter than the Fairmont/Zephyr floorpans. Most of the Mustang site have extensive threads on how they adapted Fairmont goodies, Lincoln and even Bronco/Ranger rear disc brakes. It's work, but its possible, as long as folks keep running Fox Mustangs. The nice thing is that you've got no shortage of engine options: V-4, Straight 4, Inline Six, 2 V-8s (255 and 302) carbed or Injected - all stock. The F/Z is a good base-frame to build on. If you get brave, you can shoehorn a bigger V8 or a Bronco/Ranger V-6 or V-4 Diesel. I'm biassed because my car has served me so well for 9 years. Doing the Restoration has really helped me understand the market for parts and building what I couldn't buy. Loved doing it, and it even helped me with some ideas for my home renovations.

I plan on making my own window awnings moveable to adjust for sunlight and heat control. When I saw the heater vent adjuster cables, I figured out how to change the angle or shake off the snow from Inside the house, not in -40C temperatures.

Now, I can practically rebuild or repair any part of the car, and what I can't, I can adapt from the many other compatible vehicles I mentioned.

 

Senri, (don't take me seriously, eh?) there's only two kinds of car-owners - Fox-bodied Wagons and those who wish they were!

If you wanted, you could put your own ethanol still in the back with a couple bags of Sugar Beets or Corn and keep on running. Or a half-bottle of Schnapps!

 

Is that 307 the same as the small-block 283 or 327? We had a new 1968 Caprice, when I was a kid that had the new 307. You could install almost all the engine parts from a 283 in it. Didn't know that Olds had their own version.

 

The 307 parts will not fit a standard 350, no. I think it is a special olds engine, that was so squeezed for emission purposes by the end of the 80's that it has very bad fuel economy under load and no power (for a 307). And as everything is different, there are almost no options to do something about it. You need to swap heads, everything!

One thing I have decided for sure now, if I go forward with the engine plan, I will go for a 350 instead of a 400. More economical and power enough for my needs.

But I will look around for a fairmont, I don't want to be a wannabee anymore!!!!

If, by accident I would find one, what are things to look for, besides to the wheel arces etc?

 

Talking about your Fairmont, what is the status of your project now? I for sure would like an update!

 

I'm telling you, when you get over 40, you get CRS - Can't Remember Anything (the s-word gets 4 stars). I've really had the car since 1997, but it's been in Restoration Heaven for almost 2 years - undriven. So 11 years, 2 out of service = 9 years. Whew, my math is still ok.